Linux hot take: bash bashing 

The convention of having the command shell replace "*" with a list of all matching files in the current folder[1] only in is... well.

I understand how it's useful for really basic core file utilities.

For anything that needs to do recursive directory-searches, though, it really gets in the way and raises the bar for what the user has to know in order to make use of CLI in Linux.

I just now had a long conversation with an advanced bash user[2], and apparently there really is no way to get this information without setting an option in bash before running a command (and then presumably unsetting it afterwards, so as not to break other programs).

Just... why.

[1] ...and *only* the current folder... and only including folders that match the same pattern -- like "*.rb" would include a folder named "foldername.rb", which pretty much never happens

[2] Much thanks to sophia kara for hashing through this with me. I was very grumpy about it.

Linux hot take: bash bashing 

@woozle 1. What option is this?

2. Globbing is a convenience, but generally *Not Good Programming Practice*.

3. find | read or find | xargs is probably what you want. More specifically:

while find . <args> | read file do; echo ">>> $file <<<"; <processing on file>; done

I like to echo the name of the file(s) found, first, both as a verification of the find command/results, and as a progress indicator.

re: Linux hot take: bash bashing 

@dredmorbius

#1: I've documented my findings -- htyp.org/bash/globbing

#2: Hard agree -- especially when there's no way to access the raw information (without making the user jump through extra hoops to provide it).

#3: I'd consider this an "extra hoop".

It seems to me that bash needs to be patched to provide the information in the execution environment. It already provides all kinds of other information of more dubious value, e.g. the format of the command-prompt, so why not this?

@woozle Bash is (at least) two things:

1. An interactive command environment.

2. A scripting tool.

The *benefit* of combining these features is that _what you use daily to interact with the system_ is *also* what you can use _for basic system automation tasks_.

In fact you can segue from one to the other through "shell one-liners" and the like. As a consequence, bash is the one programming tool I know best, _simply from daily familiarity_.

The combination also forces compromises.

1/

@woozle All of which I write as you seem to be criticising a thing without understanding how it came to be, without suggesting a specific alternative approach, and without considering the possible consequences of doing things differently.

Not that "different" is wrong. But sometimes long-standing methods widely adopted and used ... have valid foundations.

15/end/

@dredmorbius Part of my criticism is intended as an "if there's a good reason for this, then I'd like to know what it is, but I kind of suspect there isn't".

In my researches, I've discovered that glob() is actually a system call that any application could invoke in a single line of code. The helpfulness of doing it automatically and without any option of retrieving the original data therefore seems... questionable.

@woozle Coordination problem.

EVERY. SINGLE. BINARY. AND. EXECUTABLE. WOULD. HAVE. TO. DO. THIS. ALWAYS. CORRECTLY. AND. CONSISTENTLY.

Or you build it into the shell.

ONCE.

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@dredmorbius The level of complexity and knowledge involved in calling glob() is about the same as that involved in correctly interpreting what is currently passed.

The amount of arbitraryness/counterintuitivity is, I would posit, slightly less.

However, I see your allcaps and will be happy to accept a backwards-compatible revision to bash instead of doing away with the existing standard altogether.

I can be...merciful.

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@dredmorbius

P.S. DOS never seemed to have a problem with coordination... even among 3rd-party utilities.

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