i love having to let a page load for a full minute so its fucking endless javascript stops moving elements around


turning websites into executables was a fucking mistake

the url bar? oh, you mean this shortcut to download dot com's one-click-get-fucked feature?

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i've given up on the browser, frankly. websites are a fascinating syndication model but the ecosystem is a mess owned by monsters, the architecture is a living nightmare, and the testing paradigm is a layer of hell. write servers instead, or drop javascript altogether. if entering a URL means downloading your entire fucking app anyway, just ask users to download something. oh, they won't? welcome to not relying on impression manipulation you petty huckster

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i need to do a post-mortem on dat-gateway because browser js bullshit killed that project

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corporatists springing from every crack like so many blood-sucking mites

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> This is a wretched state of affairs. Entering a URL does not represent consent to install software. Imagine an app store where even examining an app meant you had already installed it. Would you want to use that app store? I wouldn't. So how in heck have we arrived at that pattern for browsing the internet?

> The profitability of surveillance has coalesced into a present where sites shame us for blocking the execution of JavaScript, or for executing it selectively to avoid ads and malware. They believe that a refusal to be surveilled threatens their livelihoods.


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@garbados sorry, I am so tired of this absolutely correct point of view, I would have expected someone to actually do something about it in the last two years ;w;

@efi the trick is that our circumstances are shaped by dynamics, so it's not merely that someone must "do something" but that such a something must drastically alter our governing dynamics.

in other words, to make good software we must destroy capitalism.

@efi @garbados I'm doing something: Illustrating that a simpler JS-free Web can best target a wider variety of devices!


Now what would a Braille web browser look like? Or a virtual/augmented reality one? There's plenty of creativity left to be had in this space!

@garbados Some comments on your article

* It's not "permit it service workers" it's "permit it to show notifications" because that's the impressive level of marketing that's gone into making that request sound like something you'd want.

* It's not just websites that shame us for blocking javascript/ads/malware. I've had conversations with people close to me who argued that blocking ads on youtube was bad because it hurt the small content creators whose content I consume.

@garbados even the makers of js admitted this! some web designer needs to get a kick in the balls

@garbados I am working on a web app framework that doesn't need javascript and doesn't use it by default.

(If I've already said this, then plz forgive the horn-tooting.)

@woozle do you mean like



@woozle sorry, i don't mean to be snippy. i am just full of rage at unrelated things

@garbados Nope.


Okay, I don't know those frameworks well at all. I've heard the names but not actually coded in them. The only one I have any familiarity with as far as apps-I've-installed is Rails -- which all seem to use JS very heavily, not to mention Rails's own special back-end server and all kinds of special gewgaws, some of which also have their own server processes.

So maybe it works exactly the same as all or most of those...

...but if that's so, then where are the JSless web apps written in those frameworks?

@woozle js is client-side. the things i mentioned are all server frameworks. you can write a server app that just doesn't serve js assets. it's that easy

@woozle yeah because you pay the bills by selling ads and tracker data, which is siphoned in js. capitalism is the enemy here

@woozle lots of little apps don’t use js, like nobody is FORCING you to build with js in these frameworks, but you gotta eat and you gotta beg capitalists for that bread and they want you to write yet another limb of the panopticon

@garbados That's all too plausible...

And here I thought it was just because nobody had figured out how to do front-end navigation stuff without using JS. (...and, like, if it's all about serving ads... you don't really need JS for that, do you? Unless you actually *want* to do obnoxious popup / autoplay stuff, maybe...)

I guess I should take a closer look at those frameworks you mentioned.

@woozle flask and django are python frameworks, if python’s in your repertoire. the former is great for little projects (eg no auth), django for bigger projects (eg has users)

@woozle @garbados

loads of people use server side scripting to make web applications that don't use javascript. i default to this approach when developing stuff for clients because its an order of magnitude (or more) simpler than writing a pile of javascript and webpack config. sometimes the complexity justifies an application and web is often the cheapest way to make that happen cross platform.

@xj9 @garbados It's just weird that there aren't more JS-less apps out there. Even reputable open-source stuff tends to be loaded with it.

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