Assuming RMS hasn't gone and harassed anyone:
Wouldn't it be better if people put their strengths together instead of taking advantage of other's weaknesses?
I often find Stallman's approach off-putting. I'd like to see more empathy and problem solving than purist elitism.
An empathetic problem solver could prove themselves by brining new people in and encouraging effective, compassionate culture.
Kicking a man off his life's work feels like backbiting politics. Don't need more of that.
It's not about kicking him off his life's work. It's about asking an organisation to prioritize representing the people he's alienated or harmed rather siding with him.
That's a great article, and I really like that idea.
For the purposes of wanting to be understood, I didn't mean "replaced" as in swapped out. (Rarely would I want that for a fellow human being.) Just that we need a change.
I like seeing that the article describes exactly the kind of solution I wish I'd thought of, thanks for filling me in.
I hadn't seen that part.
Consider me a new supporter of the "no-new-a-holes" plan, but when I said "assuming RMS hasn't harassed anyone..." I hadn't realized he'd already crossed exactly the kind of line I was talking about.
Last time I heard RMS talking he seemed to be kind of angry and tired and he explicitly asked others to carry this thing on instead of him.
I don't think he insists to be the only one, he just happens to be a prominent figure of the free software movement
re: RMS and the replacement thereof
- Should RMS hold a position of authority within the FSF?
- Should RMS continue to be a figurehead of the free software movement?
The first one needs to be addressed by the FSF. The second is in *our* hands. And I don't see anyone stepping up to take that role of "free software extremist" that helps hold the Overton window open. (They're probably there! I just don't see them.)
@alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I think the problem is something else: with all shortcomings RMS lives the way he preaches. I will be much less convinced by somebody giving their Free Software, Free Society presentation with slides coming out of their MacBook. I feel guilty typing this on an iPad myself.
@yojimbo @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid yes, he's the real deal. He's planted the flag so far in the "pure Free Software principle" territory, the rest of us all look moderate by comparison. That's a huge thing. And a big sacrifice for his principles on his part. I don't agree with him (or anyone) on everything he thinks, but my admiration for what he's achieved is unaffected.
But - the respect he gets for this commitment to Free Software has overwhelmed his social capacity - he has been behaving as if everything he does is good and right and proper, and the society around him has not pushed back on that effectively. I think he genuinely doesn't understand that he isn't 'right' on everything, just because he is so right on the Free Software topics.
His non Free Software comments and actions have been hurting the community for years, turning people away. It isn't all his direct fault (i.e. Peter Principle etc), but these are his actions.
I fear that there are similarities with the end of Benny Hill's career ...
@yojimbo @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I think the main problem is that he's neuro-diverse and has never explained that. Anyone who's spent time with him knows it. He's not socially aware. At all. People expect him to be a diplomat... he's definitely not that. He's the one able to focus on a rational argument long after everyone else. He shouldn't be the only spokes person, but he should be making FOSS policy because no one else is more credible than he on that topic.
@yojimbo @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid the irony is, of course, it's his non-typical nature that's made him uniquely suited to his role... and the champions of diversiying FOSS communities and diversity in general were the ones who climbed into him most ferociously. Many of those people also aren't particularly well known for adhering to FOSS principles...
@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid the thing RMS has done is to a) show us it can be done (and understand the trade-offs) and b) gives us an ideal of consistency to strive for. We all have different priorities. I still have a few minor niggling proprietary dependencies, but *very* few compared to anyone else I know... it's all relative.
@lightweight @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid agreed. I was surprised having met him in person that he is a kind of different person we think of him. I was also surprised that many people outside of the hardcore free software movement were starting to think differently having attended his lecture, with a kind of "actually he is right" attitude. I wish his followers could trigger the same feeling.
It's too bad people have to continually conflate support for free software with support for him.
Some of us support his free software work while recognizing and acknowledging his weaknesses.
So, when you refer to his "detractors" do you mean anyone who might criticize him about anything? Do you mean for him to be accepted and rejected in all-or-nothing fashion?
The association fraud is here:
" because they are filled to the brim with so, so many shitty men.
Jeffrey Epstein. Marvin Minsky.
It's so easy to get added to that list.
@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid detractors wasn't the best word choice - people who condemned him (falsely) based on a very superficial reading of hearsay from others. He unwisely says things that involve a highly charged topic that are easily misconstrued. But there's no indication he participated in any crimes.
@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid ideally, I would've wanted people close to him to encourage him to step down from his organisational leadership and promotional roles a while ago, while maintaining his #FOSS thought leadership (in which he is peerless). The way this went down is an indictment on social media and the way it enables mob rule.
@deejoe @saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid the leaders of that mob were very mean spirited, and I think will eventually be mortified by how they're celebrated by the proprietary corporations whose dirty work they did for them. They eliminated the main barrier to GAFAM's full co-option (EEE) of #FOSS. (which they only ever refer to as #OSS - they never mention Freedom, because they're working hard to kill it)
@lightweight @deejoe @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @gid I managed to got to the bottom of few past accusations of Stallman and I had to conclude that he got at least misunderstood or got willfully misinterpreted. This time a Medium story tries to equate the deeds of three men based on fragile association. I don't want RMS to be put on a pedestal or protected because "free software is dear to us", but I insist that he has to be treated fairly. But that's not going to stop the mob. I'm out of this.
I *might* have some proprietary drivers and then there's my phone. But otherwise I'm happily free of proprietary software in my life.
And I do strongly agree with the Four Freedoms, even if I disagree they necessarily mean software needs to be published online for anyone to use.
@saper @alcinnz @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid mostly what we have to do is show businesses and gov'ts with proprietary software dependencies how ridiculous it is to have your data held hostage by a (usually) foreign corporation or have your data in a foreign jurisdiction under corporate control... and that it's no longer acceptable. Illustration: https://davelane.nz/mshostage
@saper @alcinnz @lightweight @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid I don't really wanna get dragged into this argument but this simply isn't true. RMS is happy to borrow your proprietary cellphone to make a call. He's happy to access content on Google docs so long as someone else runs the proprietary software for him. To claim some sort of moral superiority when he just has other people run proprietary software for him so he doesn't have to get his hands dirty is preposterous. I don't think it's particularly principled to brush the externalities under the rug here. https://twitter.com/christi3k/status/1172744600135421953 https://twitter.com/christi3k/status/1173092698187689984
And for what it's worth I do disagree with RMS's stance here, having someone else use proprietary software on your behalf does not help our movement. It's better to run that software yourself and resolve to having a free software replacement made.
@saper @alcinnz @lightweight @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid
The baseband is not free, but that's not RMS problem. It will still be RYF. He doesn't want to use it bc of position tracking when baseband is on, which is not a software problem. Src: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/17/richard_stallman_final_interview/
But Purism envisions being able to e.g. use WiFi+VPN+Matrix, replacing classic calls completely.
@danielst @alcinnz @lightweight @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid The problem is getting IP connectivity when being mobile in a non-privacy infringing way... (when WiFi is not available). Most people expect their phone to work when not connected to wifi :( This won't be solved even by the open baseband, so I think we can't get better than this.
@saper @alcinnz @lightweight @ehashman @ptvirgo @deejoe @gid
Indeed. Pragmatically, I'd consider the baseband a part of the untrusted network, so how free its sw is, is mostly philosophical. Due to regulations it seems impossible to have it really free.
Agreed, you'll not always find "privacy wifi". But even if you need to register, it's likely less centralized than now (also: multiple accounts, change MAC?). Besides, if there are a few (home, work, friends, bars) that's already a good start.
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